Category Archives: Employee Engagement

Bringing Brands to Life

This post was originally published in 2014.

By Nancy J. Sirianni

Sirianni_NancyBrands are created by companies, but it’s the end customer who ultimately determines what the brand means to them. So, how do customers come to truly understand a brand and what it stands for?

Service brands are experienced on a personal level, with employees engaging customers during one-to-one social encounters, but many firms fail to include employee-customer interactions in their brand strategies. Because human-delivered services are performances and can vary from employee to employee, firms can find it difficult to create coherent experiences that drive home their brand imagery in a consistent manner from customer to customer.

For several years, I was part of a research team at Arizona State University that explored what brand managers can do to overcome this challenge. Through a series of consumer behavior experiments and a large-scale critical incident study that included dozens of service industries, we tested how customer brand experiences can be made more consistent through the behavior of frontline service employees. That is, we examined how service firms can recruit and train employees to internalize brand imagery in order to authentically bring the brand to life with customers in what we call “branded service encounters.” Continue reading

Where Does the Employee Fit in a Service Operation?

By: David Bowen

In the classic 1978 HBR article, “Where does the customer fit in a service operation?” Richard Chase described the impact of high or low customer contact on the efficiency of the service production system. The article also posed the question, “What do you, (a service operation), have to give up in order to let the customer have it his way?

Fast forward to today’s rapidly changing context in which services are delivered and the unanswered question now seems to be, “Where does the Employee fit in a service operation?” It often appears that employees are what service firms give up in order to let the customer “have it his way”.  Technology, particularly IT, frequently substitutes for frontline employees in both consumer retailing, and even some professional services (Brynjolfsson and McAfee 2011; Rust and Huang 2014). Ironically, this technology substitution is said to yield more personalized service (Rust and Huang 2014).  Technology allows the customer to get what they want, when they want it, in whatever way they want.

The Apparent Rise and Fall in Importance of Where Frontline Employees Fit

Many years ago, the emerging services marketing literature cast frontline employees in essential, critical roles in delivering service and creating satisfied customers. Christopher Lovelock (1981) described frontline employees as a “service trinity” who help run the service operation, market the service, and are equated by customers with the service itself.  In organizational behavior, the strong linkage between front line employee perceptions and attitudes and those of customers were highlighted (e.g. Schneider and Bowen 1985).

Now a robot (Ford 2015) can replace the “trinity” and services marketing theory has shifted from a producer/employee perspective to a consumer perspective on value creation (Vargo and Lusch 2004; Heinonen et al. 2010). The recent “Service Research Priorities” study (Ostrom et al. 2015) found that “understanding organization and employee issues relevant to successful service” was rated only 9th in importance out of 12 for moving the field forward. Today’s “stars” in successful service delivery are technology and customers.

Where Frontline Employees Should Fit Now and in the Future.

Service employees can make unique, irreplaceably “human” contributions to the customer experience. For example, consider four “new”, explicitly defined employee roles made all the more essential in the new context of service (Bowen, 2016):

  • Differentiator —providing the non-substitutable human touch that avoids commoditization and makes all the more difference in the context of large ecosystems and technology dominance;
  • Innovator—-human creativity is key for the ideational innovation necessary to drive business success and growth. Frontline employees significantly help drive innovation volume and radicalness (Ordianni and Parasuraman 2011);
  • Coordinator—integrating resources and actors across the service system to create a seamless, successful customer experience; and
  • Enabler—-providing customers the resources, role clarity, motivation and rewards they need to successfully do their “jobs” in coproduction (Bowen 1986; Bettencourt, Lusch, and Vargo 2014). Also, ensuring that technology fulfills its role.

Future research should specify: (1) actors’ roles in value co-creation, e.g. the roles of employees and technology on the frontline, and the role of the customer with which the frontline interacts, for different services (2) the types of interdependence patterns amongst these roles, and (3) the portfolio of coordination mechanisms best matched to different types of interdependence patterns that will help yield a seamless customer experience (see also, Ostrom et al. 2015). Finally, given the interdependent roles of employees, technology, and customers, this topic is primed for interdisciplinary attention.

A Need for Humanistic Management in the Internet Age

Many lower level, frontline employees would likely claim they never experienced the rise in perceived importance that service marketing academics advocated in the lower-tech early days of the services discipline! Actually, even with all the change in how service is delivered it seems one thing has remained constant: these employees tend to be low paid; little respected; “bossed” by supervisor and customer alike; poorly selected and trained; suspect job security;  have little autonomy; and marginal opportunities for advancement.

Yet one thoughtful observer opined that the emphasis on more value to the customer via the internet can take place only with more humanistic management of employees (Dennig 2015). He maintains that it will be impossible to give customers whatever they want, e.g. solving their problems in customized fashion, via old, stiff hierarchical approaches to management. More horizontal arrangements become necessary, for example. What a wonderful paradox if the rise of technology, often displacing employees, could spark a change to a more humanistic management philosophy that would appreciate where employees fit in a service operation yielding benefits for both them and their customers.

David Bowen will be speaking on “Can you copy the inimitable? Lessons learned from the Four Seasons culture” at the Center for Services Leadership’s 30th Annual Services Leadership Institute on March 21 – 23, 2016. For more information, visit the CSL website.



  • Bettencourt, Lance A., Robert F. Lusch, and Stephen L. Vargo (2014), “A Service Lens on Value Creation: Marketing’s Role in Achieving Strategic Advantage,” California Management Review, 57 (1), 44-66.
  • Bowen, David E. (1986), “Managing Customers as Human Resources,” Human Resource Management, 25, 371-384.
  • Bowen, David E. (2016), “The Changing Roles of Employees in Service Theory and Practice: An Interdisciplinary View,” Human Resource Management Review, 26 (1), 4-13.
  • Brynolfsson, Erik and Andrew McAfee (2011). Race Against the Machine. Lexington, Mass.: Digital Frontier Press.
  • Denning, Steve. (2015), “The Internet is Finally Forcing Management to Care About               People,” Harvard Business Review “Managing People” posting, May, 5th, for upcoming 7th Global Drucker Forum.
  • Chase, Richard B. (1978), “Where Does the Customer Fit in a Service Operation?” Harvard Business Review, 56 (6), 137-142.
  • Ford, Martin (2015), Rise of the Robots: Technology and the Threat of a Jobless Future. Basic Books.
  • Heinonen, Kristina, T. Stranvik, K-J Mickelsson, B. Edvardsson, E. Sundstrom, and P.      Andersson (2010), “A Customer-Dominant Logic of Service, “ Journal of Service Management, 21, 531-548.
  • Lovelock, Christopher H. (1981), “Why Marketing Needs to Be Different for   Services”. In J.H. Donnelly and W.R. George (Eds.), Chicago: American Marketing Association.
  • Ordanini, Andrea A. and A. Parasuraman (2011), “Service Innovation Viewed Through a Service-Dominant Lens: A Conceptual Framework and Empirical   Analforysis,” Journal of Service Research, 14 (1), 3-23.
  • Ostrom, Amy L., A. Parasuraman, David E. Bowen, Lia Patricio, and Christopher Voss (2015) “Service Research Priorities in a Rapidly Changing Context,” Journal of Service Research, 18 (2), 127-159.
  • Rust, Roland T. and Ming-Hui Huang (2014), “The Revolution and the Transformation of Marketing Science,” Marketing Science, 33 (2), 206-221.
  • Schneider, Benjamin and David E. Bowen (1985), “Employee and Customer Perceptions of Service in Banks: Replication and Extension,” Journal of Applied Psychology, 70 (3), 423-433.
  • Vargo, Stephen L. and Robert F. Lusch (2004), “Evolving to a New Dominant Logic for Marketing,” Journal of Marketing, 68 (January), 1-17.

Leading a Culture of Service

By: Christine McHugh

My experience in customer service started in middle school, working for my grandparents at their retail gift shop.  Subsequently, a stint as a restaurant hostess and then a receptionist at a hair salon led me to managing a chain of espresso carts in Seattle where I enjoyed making coffee and talking with customers.

When I began to look for another job that provided health insurance, Starbucks was suggested given their reputation as an employer and my background in coffee.  I was hired as a barista 26 years ago when we had just 36 stores.

As a new Starbucks partner (employee), I went through extensive training on product quality, preparation and, of course, customer service.  When I was promoted into management, I received additional training on what it meant to be a customer service leader.  We had mantras like “if you’re not helping a customer, help someone who is”.

Fast forward to present day – I‘m now responsible for customer service at one of the most admired companies in the world.  And while we are often noted for great service, we do not consistently make decisions that protect and enhance the connections our baristas make with customers.

I’ve come to realize that creating a culture of service and leading a culture of service requires a constant focus, organizationally and behaviorally. Organizationally, every decision needs to be scrutinized as to whether or not it elevates the customer experience.  This requires a tremendous amount of cross-functional effort and influencing but also prioritization to focus on what matters most.

Behaviorally, employees must have clear expectations about what service looks like, accountability to those expectations, and celebration when those expectations are achieved.  For an organization and/or leader to really instill a culture of service, four practices need to be in place:

  1. Hiring for a service mentality
  2. Training and setting expectations for service
  3. Creating an environment of service
  4. Growing your business by looking at ways to analyze and improve your service

These four things are not rocket science and they are probably on the priority lists of many organizations but instilling them in the culture is the real challenge.

Hiring for Service

Do you only hire people who can connect in a genuine way?  How do you assess that?  Do they look at things from the customer’s perspective? This should be the first filter in assessing talent, not experience, not availability, not references.  If you don’t feel that a prospective employee can connect with customers, has a desire to understand customers or has a true genuine desire to serve others, then don’t hire them.

Training and Setting Expectations

Does your training plan focus specifically on customer service?  This is so critical because initial training signals what’s important and what’s expected.  Ongoing training investments reinforce concepts and develop new skills.  As a leader, you also need to show that you care about customers by demonstrating how to connect with them and telling your customer stories often.  By modeling service, you are showing what’s expected.

Creating the Environment

People want to work in a fun supportive environment, with each other and with customers. How do you recognize and celebrate customer service behaviors?  Do your customers get involved in recognizing and celebrating your employees for great service? Conversely, when service does not meet expectations, is swift coaching and action taken?

Analyzing and Improving

You probably have a lot of data available to measure the customer experience such as surveys, sales reports and research. This is valuable information but should not be taken on its own.  Analyzing and improving service also requires talking with customers and observing interactions between employees and customers.   Being solely reliant on data and metrics is a limiting perspective of the customer’s experience.

Leading a culture of service means alignment across the organization that customers and their experiences are the imperative.  Having the supporting systems, tools and expectations reinforce that alignment helps everyone understand what matters most –customers.


Headshot_ChristineMcHughChristine McHugh is currently vice president, Customer Service and Operations Services.  Christine oversees the company customer service strategy including the programs and philosophies for our retail stores.  Her team is also responsible for operational planning and implementation of all other company programs and initiatives that are deployed to our to our retail stores in the U.S. and Canada.  Prior to her current role, she was on an 18-month assignment reporting to a member of the senior leadership team to develop and deploy the Starbucks 2014 Global Leadership Conference for 2,000 district managers from around the world.  Previously, she was the vice president, Global Business Optimization, where she was responsible for the company labor investment strategy, work and process improvement using Lean principles and functional store design and engineering.  Christine joined Starbucks in 1989 as a barista and has held a variety of roles during her tenure in the organization including operations, licensed business development, foodservice sales, office coffee, human resources and learning and development.   

Christine is a graduate of Antioch University where she majored in Leadership and Organizational Studies. 

Join the Center for Services Leadership at Compete Through Services Symposium on November 5th, 2015, to hear Christine McHugh, Starbucks speak on Customers at our Core – Leading a Culture of Service.

Being Your Customer’s Hero: Interview with Adam Toporek.

cts_toporek-adam_headshot_main_300Your new book, Be Your Customer’s Hero, is launching next week. Tell us, what inspired you to write this book?

My desire to write this book came from the old business axiom of “find a need and fill it.” However, the need I was filling was first and foremost my own. Be Your Customer’s Hero is the book I always wished I’d had during my years of owning and running retail service businesses.

I’d always wanted a single book I could hand to frontline employees that would give them a comprehensive set of tools and techniques for becoming great at customer service. A book that spoke to them in an easy-to-read conversational way about the realities they face day to day. Despite all the amazing books on customer service and customer experience on the market, that book didn’t exist. So I wrote it.

In your opinion, what prevents most frontline service professionals from delivering superior service?

External factors are a big part. Store policies, lack of empowerment, and ineffective systems are just a few of the challenges frontline service professionals face. Organizational leaders need to always be looking at the structural impediments which prevent frontline professionals from delivering great service.

Internal factors are just as important and often more difficult to overcome. Most of the time, these boil down to mentality – how frontline reps view customers, how they handle their own emotions, and how confident they are.

Competence and confidence are particularly important to delivering superior service. Oftentimes with frontline employees, it may be their first job or it may be their first time working in that specific environment. By using culture and training to instill a customer-centric mindset and bolster service skill sets, organizational leaders can give frontline workers both the confidence and competence they need.

You mentioned organizations’ policies as possible obstacles to delivering great customer service. What can organizations do to make policies more customer-friendly? Can you share a couple of examples to illustrate that?

The first step is to identify the touch points that create the biggest hassles from the customer’s perspective. Study your feedback and survey data. Ask your customers directly. Also, ask your teams what policies, in their opinion, create the biggest challenges for customers. Look at both customer-facing policies and internal policies. Evaluate why you have them and how you could make them more customer-friendly.

Two quick examples:
Southwest Airlines has a customer-facing policy of not upcharging for checked bags. Now, admittedly, those fees might be passed on another way, but the policy still makes customers feel that they are not being nickel and dimed.

An example of an internal policy that is not customer-friendly is needing approvals for comps or refunds. Many years ago in a retail service business of mine, we empowered all frontline reps to comp services without supervisor approval. This internal policy change gave the reps the ability to resolve most minor customer issues in real time at very little cost to the company.

You mentioned employee empowerment, can you elaborate on that? What do companies that get it right do differently?

Empowerment is incredibly important to not only delivering great experiences but to proactively resolving issues before they have the chance to escalate. Now, empowerment is not a panacea, but it is a powerful tool that many organizations do not utilize enough.

Companies need to begin with actual empowerment, loosening the reigns in strategically focused areas and granting more authority and responsibility to frontline employees so that they can facilitate experiences and resolve issues. Organizations need to balance the risk of empowerment with the rewards; it’s an idea we call “smart empowerment.”

Whenever you expand authority or responsibility, you generally increase the risk that those expanded powers can be used in a way that hurts the organization. However, the risks must be evaluated because they are different in every situation. By way of extreme example, authorizing each frontline employee to issue refunds up to $100 is not as risky to the organization as authorizing each frontline employee to make wire transfers from the company account. Empowerment will always have limits. When you compare the risks of an empowerment initiative with the potential rewards, both to the customer and to the team, you can make an informed decision about the types of employee empowerment that are right for your organization.

Additionally, organizations should understand the difference between actual empowerment, which gives authority or responsibility, and psychological empowerment, which means the employee feels empowered. The employees have to know that they can make decisions without fear of repercussions, and they need a customer-centric mindset to want to use the authority they’ve been given to improve the customer’s experience.

What can organizational leaders do to better prepare their customer-facing teams?

We talked about competence leading to confidence earlier, but that rarely happens automatically. The expectations placed on frontline reps are often unrealistic. We expect them to be put under great pressure, sometimes being yelled at or bullied, and to not only manage that stress but to behave exactly the way we expect them to. It’s not easy to do, and I’ll admit right now, equipping front-line employees with more than only the most basic “here’s where the paper clips are” type of training is somewhere I’ve missed the mark myself before.

Think about how they train astronauts; it’s amazing. Astronauts in training are consistently confronted with a variety of adverse scenarios that they must learn to deal with. That way, when facing a critical situation, they can manage their natural reactions and respond calmly by working through the problem.

Now obviously, space flight is an extreme analogy—we don’t have the luxury of training our staff for a few years—but the takeaway is the following principle: The more you drill in practice, the more you can depend on your reaction in the real world.

So, training is key. Bring in a consultant, work through a book, or create your own trainings. Invest in the education of your leaders as well. Send them to seminars or invest in programs like the W. P. Carey Certificate in Customer Experience that gives the opportunity to work on frontline skills like service recovery or top-level CX skills like service blueprinting.

Finally, what does it mean to be your customer’s hero?

To be the customer’s hero means one thing above all else: It means being there when the customer needs you and making your personal interaction with the customer as memorably positive as possible. It’s not about over-the-top acts; it’s about consistent execution.

In the end, great customer experiences, or Hero-ClassTM customer experiences as we like to call them, create competitive advantage and lead to a better bottom line. Deliver them consistently, and your organization will reap the rewards.


Adam Toporek is the author of Be Your Customer’s Hero: Real-World Tips & Techniques for the Service Front Lines (2015), as well as the founder of the popular Customers That StickTM blog and co-host of the Crack the Customer Code podcast. He is the owner of CTS Service Solutions, a consultancy specializing in high-energy customer service workshops that teach organizations and frontline teams how to deliver Hero-ClassTM customer service. Adam has an MBA from UNC Charlotte and the W.P. Carey Certificate in Customer Experience from the Center for Services Leadership at Arizona State University. Connect with him on Twitter.

The Victuous Cycle

Terry CainBy Terry Cain

EVERY EMPLOYEE, EVERY MINUTE, EVERY DAY…Making memorable moments for our customers…yeah, right!!!

This idea of ‘culture eating strategy for breakfast’ applies to having a consistent customer experience via a consistency in the culture. Our cultures have cycles of virtue and cycles of vicious. Which cycle are you in?

The Virtuous Cycle of service embraces the above headlines along with the attitude that goes with it. We are personable (meaning we are relationship-oriented) and we acknowledge the person on the other line, or on the end of the e-mail, or through a web event as a real person. We call them by name, we say please and thank you, and we verify that we served them the way they would like to be served and expect to be served. We do this internally and externally, creating positive vibes around the customer experience and it’s a part of our culture.

The Vicious Cycle of service is just the opposite. Exceptional service is completed only by super heroes who know how to skirt the systems with heroics, offering an attitude of service externally while often beating people up internally to do so. This cycle may seem like a “hit” initially, but in the long run it’s a “miss” because it burns people out and the culture diminishes into cynicism, a tender underbelly of company-bashing at the water cooler. Employee engagement is inconsistent and so is the customer experience. Employees are working hard at the transactional elements of their jobs, not the relationship or personal nature of doing business with people, and their attitudes show that.

Most of our businesses are somewhere in between, what I call the VICTUOUS cycle. This cycle embodies the fact that even the best cultures have great people who fail once in awhile. In the Victuous cycle of service we are called out on our bad days and we own it and we fix it. Our customers call us out for our attitudes, and we get the chance to build the relationship by providing service recovery.

Creating and sustaining a customer-centered culture is a day-to-day, minute-by-minute process. While many companies focus on maintaining a Virtuous Cycle, there’s no shame in finding peace in the Victuous Cycle. After all, being perfect is impossible and doesn’t speak to the human side of relationships.

Join Steve Church and me at the Services Leadership Institute on April 1st 2015, as we deliver an hour on customer-centered cultures, leadership, and how we can advance our cultures from wherever they are!

As vice president, Global Customer Engagement, Terry Cain manages the strategic planning and execution of Avnet’s global customer engagement, measurement, and experience. Terry’s career began in the warehouse with Avnet over 25 years ago. Growth in technology enabled Terry’s growth in product management and leadership of one of the regional sales organizations, then in corporate shared services, operational excellence, now customer engagement.

Terry studied psychology at Indiana Central College, earned a Lean Green Belt from ASU, Process Master from Hammer and Co.; Master Instructor for Prosci Change Management; and is co-creator of A Culture of Service Excellence taught at Avnet. He serves as guest faculty at the WP Carey School of Business, Eller and Kellogg Schools of Business and is on the faculty of Argyle Customer Care Forum, NG Customer Experience, Consero Customer Care, CX Fusion, Services Leadership Institute and Field Service USA. His board service includes WP Carey Center for Services Leadership Advisory Board and CPLC Parenting Arizona (prior Chairman for two years). Terry is a member of CXPA, plays golf and music and resides in Tempe, Arizona, with his wife, Rebecca, and has one adult son, Jonathan.


To learn more about the Services Leadership Institute visit the Center for Services Leadership website.

Arizona Diamondbacks CEO Creates Fan-Centric Culture

If you attended Compete through Service symposium then you had an opportunity to hear excellent presentations by Bruce Temkin and Derrick Hall about Customer Experience. In this post, Bruce Temkin talks about his interview with Arizona Diamondbacks CEO Derrick Hall and highlights some of the main ideas Derrick Hall shared with the symposium attendees.

Customer Experience Matters®

I recently had the opportunity to hear Derrick Hall, CEO of the Arizona Diamondbacks, speak at the Arizona State University, Center for Services Leadership (CSL) Compete Through Service Symposium. Hall was extremely passionate about customer experience. His goal: “Treat our fans, employees, and players better than any team in sports.”

Hall’s perspective as a senior executive was so refreshing that I scheduled a follow-up interview. The call started with some baseball talk (I confessed to being a passionate member of Red Sox Nation) and included a brief interruption by Tony La Russa, the Diamondbacks’ Chief Baseball Officer. Needless to say, I really enjoyed the conversation.

CircleOfSuccessDiamondbacksHall joined the D-backs in May 2005 as Senior Vice President, Communications, was named president in September 2006 and CEO in January 2009. He proudly points to the core operating framework he adopted called the “Circle of Success.” It describes how the Diamondbacks organization needs to focus on five things:

  • Performance (on the field)
  • Community

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Bruce Temkin on Service Innovation, New Trends and Challenges Faced by Service Companies.

By Darima Fotheringham


Bruce Temkin, CCXP, is a Co-Founder &
Chair of the Customer Experience Professionals Association and the Managing Partner of Temkin Group. He is widely viewed as a leading expert in how large organizations build differentiation with customer experience. As the Managing Partner, he consults for leading global companies, is a keynote speaker at top industry events, researches customer experience trends, and is the author of Customer Experience Matters, influential CX blog. Prior to Temkin Group, Bruce spent 12 years with Forrester Research during which time he led the company’s financial services, e-business, and customer experience practices.

I interviewed Bruce Temkin at the 25th Annual Compete Through Service Symposium, where he spoke about Customer Experience and “Tapping Into the Power of Purpose, Empathy, and Memories”.

Q: Today we heard about service innovation from three different speakers. I wanted to ask which of the ideas they shared resonated with you and why?

A: I think a number of them resonated and I won’t go into all of them, they presented great stuff. I think the notion of starting with the customer and working back in was an important theme that showed up across the board. I also really liked the way that Amazon talked about having a very simple metric. They ask: “Were we able to solve your problem?” And I think when you use simplicity in your measurements, it frees up the people in your organization to spend time and feel they can do other things. A lot of the discussion was around how you get that innovation from your employees, because employees are the biggest source of innovation we heard about today. We have to create an environment where they feel comfortable,  and feel they have their time and feel empowered. Those were some key takeaways today.

Q: We also heard about trendsetting and how it’s a lonely business, yet “you have to innovate or die”. What are the new trends that service companies cannot afford to miss?

A: To me one of the key trends is simplicity. In this world of complexity we sometimes add things on and make things harder and harder. But if you look at some of the key new innovations, whether it’s Uber or Airbnb, and you look at the models they have, they are very simple. I think the service models have to follow that and become very simple.

Q: In your opinion, what are the biggest challenges that service companies are facing?

A: They face a lot of problems so probably the biggest to start with is customer expectations are rising. Whether you’re a B2B company or a B2C company, people expect things to happen now, they expect them to be easy. That’s hard to do, especially for companies that are trying to deliver complex services or complex products. I think that’s a challenge. The other challenge continues to be around how you create an environment with your people. I’m a big believer that a lot of the success or failures come not necessarily from the technologies or processes we use but from how we deal with the people we have. How do we get the right people? How do we enable them? And how do we let them loose to deliver the great service we want? To me, the challenge number one is: How do we make sure that we are engaging our people on a path that allows them to deliver the innovations and deliver the service at the level that our customers want into the future.

Q: We hear from companies about a skill gap in the workforce. Is that something that you come across working with different companies? Is there a skill gap and what is it?

A: Well there are lots of skills gaps. One of the key skill gaps that we run into and see all the time is in the area of insights and analytics. There aren’t enough people in what I would consider the hard core analytics. Over the next years many companies are going to increase their use of predictive analytics, text analytics, so we need people who can do that. But the real people we need doing this work are the ones that can balance the analytics with an understanding of the business, people that can bridge the world of deep analytics with the needs and insights of the business. That’s one skill gap.

Another skill gap that people don’t talk about much, but it relates to what I was talking about earlier, is the ability to manage and motivate an employee workforce. Historic of the last several years, we’ve really worked on management skills that are more hard core, people who can manage and drive. But we haven’t created leaders, people who can inspire and people who can communicate, people who can get their people to do better. I think that’s an important skill gap that has to be filled.